PIP Losers revealed.

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PIP Losers revealed.

Postby Deegill » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:48 am

Further details about Personal Independence Payment (PIP) announced yesterday reveal who some of the biggest losers under the replacement for disability living allowance (DLA) will be.

Claimants who cannot walk more than 50 metres, even if they need to use some sort of aid other than a wheelchair to do so, will no longer be entitled to the enhanced (higher) rate of the mobility component, on those grounds alone. Instead they will get only the standard rate. Many blind claimants also look set to lose their higher rate mobility award, only recently won after years of campaigning.

Claimants who cannot prepare and cook a simple meal will not be entitled to any award of PIP on those grounds alone, whereas they are currently entitled to the lower rate of the care component of DLA.

It was only yesterday, on the day before the House of Lords debates the issue, that the DWP finally published the proposed points thresholds for getting an award of PIP in a document entitled ‘Personal Independence Payment: assessment thresholds and consultation’. The timing of the release gives peers virtually no opportunity to work out who is and isn’t likely to be awarded PIP and, more importantly, makes it impossible for disability groups to study the points system and write briefs for peers prior to the debate.

At this stage both the points and the thresholds are draft ones and may be changed in the light of further consultation. However, the government has said that it expects half a million fewer people to be receiving PIP in 2016 than would receive DLA, if these proposals are accepted.

The document provides 15 case studies showing how the assessment system might work for people with various different conditions, depending on their severity.

•In case study 2, Rachel has chronic fatigue syndrome and scores 4 points for daily living and no points for mobility. This means that Rachel is not entitled to any rate of PIP.

•In case study 4, Pete has epilepsy and scores 6 points for daily living and 15 points for mobility. Pete gets no award of PIP for daily living but gets the enhanced rate of the PIP mobility component.

•In case study 10, Sarah is blind and diabetic. She scores 9 points for daily living and 8 points for mobility. Sarah is entitled to the standard rates of both the daily living and mobility components.

•In case study 13, Tom is autistic. He scores 26 points for daily living and 15 points for mobility. Tom is entitled to the enhanced rates of both the daily living and mobility components.

•In case study 15, Jane is depressed and receiving treatment from a psychiatrist as well as taking anti-depressants. She receives 8 points for daily living and no points for mobility. Jane is entitled to the standard rate of the daily living component but no award of the mobility component.
The government are inviting disabled people and disability organisations to take part in a consultation on the scoring system between now and 30 April 2012. Benefits and Work will be publishing a detailed analysis of the scoring and thresholds once we’ve had the opportunity to study the new document.

Meanwhile we’ve published details of the thresholds and of the points system below, so that readers can attempt to work out what they might score – bearing in mind how harshly the DWP and Atos are likely to interpret the wording of the activities. (The points system was originally published in November 2011 in a document entitled 'Personal independence payment: second draft of assessment regulations’).

Daily living component
To get an award of the daily living component, a claimant needs to score:

8 points for the standard rate
12 points for the enhanced rate

For daily living, the points need to be scored from activities 1-9 below.

You can only score one set of points from each activity, if two or more apply only the highest will count. So, for example, if:

4 d. Needs assistance to groom. 2 points
4 g. Needs assistance to bathe. 4 points

both apply you will receive 4 points for the ‘Bathing and grooming’ activity.

If, for example:

d. Needs assistance to manage toilet needs. 4 points

also applies to you, then you will have scored 4 points for the ‘Bathing and grooming’ activity and 4 points for the ‘’Managing toilet needs or incontinence’ activity. This is a total of 8 points which means you would be entitled to the standard rate of the daily living component.

Mobility component
To get an award of the mobility component you need to score:

8 points for the standard rate
12 points for the enhanced rate

For mobility, the points need to be scored from activities 10-11 below.

As with daily living above, you only score the highest points that apply to you from each activity, but you can add points from activities 10 and 11 together to reach your final total.

PIP ACTIVITIES AND POINTS
1. Preparing food and drink.
a. Can prepare and cook a simple meal unaided. 0 points
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 2 points
c. Cannot cook a simple meal using a conventional cooker but can do so using a microwave. 2 points
d. Needs prompting to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 2 points
e. Needs supervision to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 4 points
f. Needs assistance to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 4 points
g. Cannot prepare and cook food and drink at all. 8 points

2. Taking nutrition.
a. Can take nutrition unaided. 0 points
b. Needs either –
(i) to use an aid or appliance to take nutrition; or
(ii) assistance to cut up food. 2 points
c. Needs a therapeutic source to take nutrition. 2 points
d. Needs prompting to take nutrition. 4 points
e. Needs assistance to manage a therapeutic source to take nutrition. 6 points
f. Needs another person to convey food and drink to their mouth. 10 points

3. Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition.
a. Either –
(i) Does not receive medication, therapy or need to monitor a health condition; or
(ii) can manage medication, therapy or monitor a health condition unaided, or with the use of an aid or appliance. 0 points
b. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to manage medication or monitor a health condition. 1 point
c. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to manage therapy that takes up to 3.5 hours a week. 2 points
d. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to manage therapy that takes between 3.5 and 7 hours a week. 4 points
e. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to manage therapy that takes between 7 and 14 hours a week. 6 points
f. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to manage therapy that takes at least 14 hours a week. 8 points

4. Bathing and grooming.
a. Can bathe and groom unaided. 0 points
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to groom. 1 point
c. Needs prompting to groom. 1 point
d. Needs assistance to groom. 2 points
e. Needs supervision or prompting to bathe. 2 points
f. Needs to use an aid or appliance to bathe. 2 points
g. Needs assistance to bathe. 4 points
h. Cannot bathe and groom at all. 8 points

5. Managing toilet needs or incontinence.
a. Can manage toilet needs or incontinence unaided. 0 points
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to manage toilet needs or incontinence. 2 points
c. Needs prompting to manage toilet needs. 2 points
d. Needs assistance to manage toilet needs. 4 points
e. Needs assistance to manage incontinence of either bladder or bowel. 6 points
f. Needs assistance to manage incontinence of both bladder and bowel. 8 points
g. Cannot manage incontinence at all. 8 points

6. Dressing and undressing.
a. Can dress and undress unaided. 0 points
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to dress or undress. 2 points
c. Needs either -
(i) prompting to dress, undress or determine appropriate circumstances for remaining clothed; or
(ii) assistance or prompting to select appropriate clothing. 2 points
d. Needs assistance to dress or undress lower body. 3 points
e. Needs assistance to dress or undress upper body. 4 points
f. Cannot dress or undress at all. 8 points

7. Communicating.
a. Can communicate unaided and access written information unaided, or using spectacles or contact lenses. 0 points
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance other than spectacles or contact lenses to access written information. 2 points
c. Needs to use an aid or appliance to express or understand verbal communication. 2 points
d. Needs assistance to access written information. 4 points
e. Needs communication support to express or understand complex verbal information. 4 points
f. Needs communication support to express or understand basic verbal information. 8 points
g. Cannot communicate at all. 12 points

8. Engaging socially.
a. Can engage socially unaided. 0 points
b. Needs prompting to engage socially. 2 points
c. Needs social support to engage socially. 4 points
d. Cannot engage socially due to such engagement causing either –
(i) overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant; or
(ii) the claimant to exhibit uncontrollable episodes of behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person. 8 points

9. Making financial decisions
a. Can manage complex financial decisions unaided. 0 points
b. Needs prompting to make complex financial decisions. 2 points
c. Needs prompting to make simple financial decisions. 4 points
d. Cannot make any financial decisions at all. 6 points

10. Planning and following a journey.
a. Can plan and follow a journey unaided. 0 points
b. Needs prompting for all journeys to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 4 points
c. Needs either –
(i) supervision, prompting or a support dog to follow a journey to an unfamiliar destination; or
(ii) a journey to an unfamiliar destination to have been entirely planned by another person. 8 points
d. Cannot follow any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 10 points
e. Needs either –
(i) supervision, prompting or a support dog to follow a journey to a familiar destination; or
(ii) a journey to a familiar destination to have been planned entirely by another person. 15 points

11. Moving around.
a. Can move at least 200 metres either –
(i) unaided; or
(ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. 0 points
b. Can move at least 50 metres but not more than 200 metres either –
(i) unaided; or
(ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. 4 points
c. Can move up to 50 metres unaided but no further. 8 points
d. Cannot move up to 50 metres without using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. 10 points
e. Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by the claimant. 12 points
f. Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by another person or a motorised device. 15 points
g. Cannot either –
(i) move around at all; or
(ii) transfer unaided from one seated position to another adjacent seated position. 15 points

TAKEN FROM BENEFITS AND WORK WEBSITE. I know i shouldn't probably copy this, but its too important not too. Now i'm off to bed as alot of this will involve me!
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby shazq » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:43 pm

Thanks for posting this Denise. :hugs:
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby denys » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:22 pm

Thanks for the heads up Denise :-D :-D :-D
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby sjc » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:34 pm

Hi. Great post. I did a pip test on a benefits website to see if i be eligible for the new dla. Well, i would definately qualify for my care component. But i would loose high rate mobility and would only perhaps get the standard rate. Currently i get high rate mobility. I definately agree that the benefits system does need changing, but i worry that some geniune people will loose out. It seems that unless you are severally affected by you conditions now, those with mild conditions will loose out. Take care folks.
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby Ldyalb » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:12 am

I think the theory behind DLA (to an extent) is correct, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

I do remember someone getting outraged about Disability Benefit - they said they should pay different amounts depending on the severity of the disability. This was a Daily Mail reader I believe.

Someone pointed out that DLA is actually paid at different rates, depending on your mobility and/or care needs. It's a wide spectrum from a minimum of £19.55 a week to £125 a week.

The idea itself is good, the problem surrounds how hard it is for people to qualify, especially if they have difficulties over a wide area, but none bad enough in itself to trigger the 'they need DLA decision'. PIP just takes that in a whole new direction - the goalposts have changed and those who got the higher rates of DLA will get less under the new system. I particularly dislike the mobility changes - I think a lot of people who need HRM for their Motability cars will lose out. And those on the lower rates may lose everything.

I also hate the name. Disability Living Allowance does what it says on the tin. Personal Independence Payments just sounds like a mis-sold product on a loan, or a cheap PC term. The money spent on the faff of removing a benefit and creating a new one could be better spent on disabled people themselves.
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby MCT » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:53 pm

There is a PIP Assessment Thresholds and Consultation in progress at the moment: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-assessme ... tation.pdf

. . . we view the development of the draft criteria as an iterative process. Before we reached firm views on the entitlement thresholds for the rates and components of Personal Independence Payment, we therefore wanted to take the opportunity to hear initial reactions to the proposed descriptor weightings included in the second draft.


This is the chance for all those who are currently in receipt of DLA or who are likely be affected by any future need to claim DLA/PIP to get their feelings known and to express any concerns they may have about the criteria as they stand at present.

We recognise that there are likely to be strong views on the entitlement thresholds and how these relate to the descriptor weightings previously proposed. We have now begun a further consultation on the second draft of the assessment criteria, including the weightings and entitlement thresholds, and would welcome any views that people and organisations have.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/disability ... -criteria/

My main concern is the mobility criteria for the Enhanced Rate - you need to score 12 or more:

For activity 11 (Moving around), individuals who use aids and appliances to move very short distances can receive the standard rate, reflecting the extra costs incurred; while those who need wheelchair to do so will receive the enhanced rate, reflecting the additional extra costs, barriers and overall level of need which often accompany wheelchair use.


The way the scoring works it seems to me that unless you are in a wheelchair all the time, bedridden or cannot transfer unaided from one seated position to another adjacent seated position you won't qualify for Enhanced Rate. NO account has been taken of severe pain and or discomfort that is part of the DLA criteria. I don't have a wheelchair but I do need a scooter to go shopping or taking the dog out for a walk (mind you, most of the time he prefers to sit on my knee rather than walk!)

If you "Cannot move up to 50 metres without using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device" you score 10 - the example they give as scoring 10 is: "He finds it very tiring if he walks more than 40-50m so he often uses a wheelchair if he is going outdoors." To me this kind of contradicts the ". . . those who need wheelchair to do so will receive the enhanced rate, reflecting the additional extra costs, barriers and overall level of need which often accompany wheelchair use."

Another example they give is "He can walk for short distances but the pain in his knees stops him after about 20-30 steps – he is currently on the waiting list for two knee replacements. He cannot use sticks because of his hand problems and has difficulty climbing stairs." For this they have scored him as "Can move up to 50 metres unaided but no further" this scores 8 points enough for Standard Rate while chances are at the moment he would most likely qualify for HRM.

:roll:

This is currently being discussed on the new Spartacus Forum http://www.spartacusforum.org.uk/forum/ ... ,21.0.html which has been set up in response to the Welfare Reform Bill by wearespartacus.org the group campaigning for Responsible Reform (remember the House of Lords revolt, well that was, in part, down to the Spartacus team of Tweeters & emailers).
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby Whogirl » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:38 am

When PIP comes in looks like I'm losing my DLA :(
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby *Lisa* » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:27 pm

Thanks for the information.

Looks so much like the ESA! day-ja-vu!

I am wondering if there going to cut money down ?

My DLA is up for renuwal next sept 2013 so looking likely that i will be amoungst the forst ones to tackle this! :roll:

Wonder if we will all need a medical confirming what we say as well as support letters from our GP/consultants etc.

Just more stress BUT all this information is great to work with and be prepared for what is about to come :-)
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby crazycat36 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:47 pm

ive been on dla for just over 6yrs now (gets renewed every 3yrs) but ive got to say im dreading this new pip thing at the moment i qualify for HRM and MRC and im waiting to take delivery of my mobility car so i can get out and about a little easier, up until recently i was struggling with buses but find its far to much for me now and cant wait to get my dla car, if i was still fit and healthy id still be working long hrs as i hate not being able to and having to sit/lie around unable to do simple tasks for myself, im also hoping to get myself a mobility scooter for going local but because i stay in a council house in a village i feel i now need them both as even shuffling around the house is to much a lot of the time, i dont c why the goverment has to change dla it works fine the way it is although some of the rates could do to b a little higher as so many people that require a mobility car also require a scooter for getting as far as the car, and so ur able to do ur own shopping but unfortunatly thats not taken into account so im having to save as much as i can till i can afford a we scooter, so i dont need to drive everywhere i will b able to hav the equivilant of a stroll along the beach front which ive been unfit to do for a good few yrs now, although it wont help the pain of fibro, instead of curling up in bed or on couch/chair i will b able to huddle onto scooter and get out and meet more people and hopefully the depression from being cut off from the world will lift a bit for me....the goverment needs to get out there debating chambers and go and actually speak to people from different walks of life with different disabilities and i honeslty think theyd reconsider this hole PIP thing.

Sorry fibro fog bad today kind of waffled on not helped by serious flare today hope i got my point accross
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby Hudsonwhymsy » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:44 pm

I'm on lower rate care for DLA. Indefinitely. But I've been told I need more help for both care and mobility but I'm scarred that if I put in I iChat lose the lose. I won my ESA case but don't get any money as my partner works more than 24 hours. It's always the same though the ones that are genuine and need it lose out. Some times I wish I wasn't British. I would get more help then.
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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby Flora1966 » Tue May 22, 2012 7:24 pm

Im on the higher rates for care and mobility but with this new pip it looks like I will only get standard rate..Which means I will lose my bus pass so I will no longer be able to go anywhere as I can't afford the bus fares...I live in a small town and you need buses to get anywhere....I'm also in the support group for ESA but that ends in April next year...I really don't know what I am expected to live on!! :crazy: ...I have been told that I can't get income support as i'm single and don't have any dependent children...I was told by DHSS that I should claim jobseekers...But told them, hold on a minute i'm in support group ESA and high rates DLA so who is going to employ me?? There are no jobs in this little town so would have to go miles to find work...Sometimes I just feel like giving up...I told the lady on the phone that they will have to put me in a home as I can't afford to live independently and that would cost them a fortune...She didn't really know what to say... :crazy:

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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby fruity72 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:15 pm

I hate to say it but after doing the PIP training people with things like fibromyalgia alone will find it extremely difficult to get any rate of PIP.

I understand why they are doing it and agree to an extent but people who genuinely need it are going to lose out
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PIP Losers revealed.

Postby toplessbug » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:07 am

I did the pip test on the benefits website and It gave me High rated for both care and mobility.

It says
Total points: 31
To be eligible for the daily living component of PIP you need to score:
8-11 points to be awarded the standard rate; or
12 points or more to be awarded the higher rate.
You assessed yourself as being eligible for the ENHANCED RATE of the daily living component of PIP

'Total points: 14
To be eligible for the mobility component of PIP you need to score:
8-11 points to be awarded the standard rate; or
or 12 points or more to be awarded the higher rate.
You assessed yourself as being eligible for the ENHANCED RATE of the mobility component of PIP


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Re: PIP Losers revealed.

Postby fruity72 » Thu May 16, 2013 7:53 pm

Hudsonwhymsy wrote:I'm on lower rate care for DLA. Indefinitely. But I've been told I need more help for both care and mobility but I'm scarred that if I put in I iChat lose the lose. I won my ESA case but don't get any money as my partner works more than 24 hours. It's always the same though the ones that are genuine and need it lose out. Some times I wish I wasn't British. I would get more help then.



I take great offense to this comment as I do voluntary work at CAB and every client I have seen in almost a year do not take the p*ss out of the system. They work and they work very hard. In fact I had a client today who is married and been here 7 years and never once has he claimed any benefits, he has work self employed and paid tax and insurance for 7 years. I see BRITISH clients constantly and in my opinion they are the ones who "work" the system and even when they can work they don't want to, so please do your research before saying what you do. Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I get fed up hearing ppl complain about "foreigners" getting everything, when it isn't the case.
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